Round up over Bermuda Cancel The title field is required!

1. James Smith

   

   112 posts
   
   8/27/2017 7:08 AM

   is any one using lighter rates of Round-Up over bermuda for weed control?
   
   Had my salesman tell me he knew a few Supers doing it @20oz/acre with success.
   
   Tried it on my Driving Range since we have been having issues keeping it cut with all of our rain and it looks like it wiped out the goose grass growing on it. stunted everything else so far but it's only been since Tuesday (6 days).

   
   
   
   
2. Christopher Senior

   

   0 posts
   
   8/28/2017 8:08 AM

   I have used it to good effect as a cheap growth regulator in the roughs in the height of summer (central FL). Added bonus that it catches some of the weed pressure too. I have only gone as high as 10 oz/A though, havent had the cojones to go higher than that for what I was trying to accomplish.

   
   
   
   
3. James Smith

   

   112 posts
   
   8/28/2017 10:08 AM

   I understand the rate issues. with Harvey in Texas I fingured why not try out the higher rate on our Driving Range to see what happens. I'm told other courses are using it at these rates in November/December to control Poa. I'll update this thread as I see whats happening.

   
   
   
   
4. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   8/30/2017 1:08 PM

   We occasionally use Roundup at 5ozs/ac in bahia areas as a growth regulator. Controls some weeds and doesn't even touch the Bermuda.
   
   I also know of a course here locally that has been using for weed control in Bermuda rough. They have been using 16ozs/ac and adding a product call GlyTrel Z from Yara. Zero issues on the Bermuda.

   
   
   
   
5. Larry Allan

   

   0 posts
   
   8/31/2017 4:08 AM

   It's none of my business but by using this round up program are you not seriously increasing the risk of resistance when you actually need roundup for renovation etc?

   
   
   
   
6. Michael Rogers

   

   2 posts
   
   8/31/2017 5:08 AM

   Hi Andy, What percent glyphosate is the roundup? I cannot find GlyTrel Z from Yara , there is a Glytrel Mn P.
   
   Thanks Michael
   
   Marbella Golf Country Club

   
   
   
   
7. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   9/1/2017 12:09 PM

   Larry Allan said: It's none of my business but by using this round up program are you not seriously increasing the risk of resistance when you actually need roundup for renovation etc?

   
   
   
   Probably. But bermuda is hard to kill with Glyphosate by itself anyways. Why we always add Fusilade.

   
   
   
   
8. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   9/1/2017 12:09 PM

   Michael Rogers said: Hi Andy, What percent glyphosate is the roundup? I cannot find GlyTrel Z from Yara , there is a Glytrel Mn P.
   
   Thanks Michael
   
   Marbella Golf Country Club

   
   
   Glytrel Z is basically same, except contains Zinc instead of Mn and P. I'll email you some info.

   
   
   
   
9. James Smith

   

   112 posts
   
   9/14/2017 6:09 AM

   Larry Allan said: It's none of my business but by using this round up program are you not seriously increasing the risk of resistance when you actually need roundup for renovation etc?

   
   
   Larry, not sure why you think this may be none of your business. I have always thought of this site as a learning, information site. any advice, thoughts or questions are always welcome.
   
   We are discussing Round up because it does work in killing grass but mainly because it is super cheap. My club has not been able to afford weed control this year other than roundup. I here that some other supers have been experimenting with it and wanted to learn more about it.
   
   I can understand your resistance theory and agree to some extent. for a club that is looking for cheap weed control I would think resistance would be the last thing we would be worried about.
   
   That being said I did spray my Driving Range two weeks ago @ 20oz/acre. The crab grass was smoked within two days, the Bahia took about 10 and the bermuda did turn brown but I see a lot of live bermuda still in the ground and I see new shoots still coming out of the plants.
   
   The reason I went so high on the rate was I really needed to see the worst case scenario. Its my DR and I was having problems keeping the Bahia cut enough to pick the balls out of it. looks like I will not have to cut it again for 3-4 weeks. My next step is another out of play area where I want to use the 10oz/acre rate and see what happens.
   
   I am intrigued by the growth regulator comments. may have to do an area with a lower rate also to see what it gives.

   
   
   
   
10. Ryan Reimer

    

    3 posts
    
    9/18/2017 7:09 AM

    What about Dallisgrass? Anyone seen decent control at that rate?

    
    
    
    
11. James Smith

    

    112 posts
    
    9/27/2017 9:09 AM

    An update!
    
    Well my bermuda had greened back up and is starting to grow again. What I did notice is areas that were extremely thin to it harder the full stands of the bermuda did.
    
    In answer to the dallis grass question
    
    It so far killed the Bahia, Dallis, goosegrass (I think this could get done at half the rate), virginia button weed, killinga, and nutsedge.
    
    the bahia is still hanging on in a few areas though, but not many. I will wait a few more weeks before trying another lighter application for the bahia.

    
    
    
    
12. Keith Fellenstein

    

    0 posts
    
    9/27/2017 10:09 AM

    Great info James. Thanks for the update and keep 'em coming! So often we only get the problem or upfront issue and rarely get a glimpse into how things turn out afterwards.

    
    
    
    
13. Jeffrey Whitmire

    

    0 posts
    
    10/13/2017 8:10 PM

    Even the label states you can spray it at 16 oz. / Acre.

    
    
    
    
14. James Smith

    

    112 posts
    
    10/22/2017 7:10 AM

    We made a second application at 10oz acre and I see a lot of the Bahia that was trying to come back die off again. I had no return of the goose grass as of yet and the bermuda still looks green. The bermuda is thin but I think that is mainly from the weeds our range was infested with. thankfully my assistant missed a 1' section down the middle so I have a better idea of the action of the chemical. since we are using our Driving Range as a test field anyway it worked out for the better. We actually had to cut the range twice between the applications but we only cut the bermuda that had come back.
    
    Next spring will be the real test. We will start earlier with the applications. most likely late April or May after the bermuda really starts growing and we spot the goose grass coming in.
    
    Its important to note that we do not fertilize our Driving Range and will not again next year. the soil is really good old farming land from Sugar cane fields 60+ years ago.
    
    More updates to come

    
    
    
    
15. James Smith

    

    112 posts
    
    2/25/2018 7:02 AM

    I wanted to update on using Roundup on Bermuda in the winter.
    
    As I have said before, my club cannot afford the traditional herbicides this year so I am forced to use what I can.
    
    We sprayed our tees with 20oz/acre of Roundup about a month ago when they were still dormant and we had about 80% kill on the weeds. seems that the clovers are a little more persistant. We only overseed our par three tees so this did not affect our overseeding since we skipped spraying the par threes.
    
    Due to a really bad winter this year where we had very windy conditions as well as a lot of rain we were not able to spray the rest of the course until two weeks ago. problem was our fairways was already starting to green up. So we sprayed the roughs and slopes at the same rate as the tees and the following Monday we sprayed our Fairways also. I had to make a tough decision on spraying the roundup over the bermuda during greenup or transition as some may call it. I had a few factors pushing me in this direction with the biggest being outside tournaments starting in April. Spraying now also saves us needed money in fuel cost of cutting the fairways as well as labor that is needed in keeping the live oak leaves out of play (we have many live oaks on my course). And yes my Poa invasion was really bad and needing addressed.
    
    My roughs have browned back out but to be honest they had not really started coming out of dormancy yet so its mainly weeds dying off.
    
    I fully expect to see my fairways brown out this next week as the Poa is now yellow. The issue is how much they are set back and how fast they can recover. I will update this post after seeing the outcome.
    
    Please understand desperate times call for desperate measures. No one expected us to get a week of record highs in mid February. I have only seen it once while working in this business and expect that our hard winter is over in my area. My tif eagle greens are fully green now, even the areas (drain lines that turned white) I had thought we lost due to a record two snows in one winter season and three freezes. I really thought I would have a few weeks of resodding areas on my greens.

    
    
    
    
16. Keith Fellenstein

    

    0 posts
    
    2/27/2018 10:02 AM

    James- I have had to do the same as you in the past. With the Bermuda just breaking dormancy, I saw anywhere from 2-4 week delay in greenup, but no lasting damage from the roundup application. The longer delay was on shaded holes or unexpected cool spells in the spring. I'm sure you'll be fine, and I think it was a great call to spray in February to get out ahead of play in April!

    
    
    
    
17. William Murphy

    

    8 posts
    
    2/27/2018 10:02 AM

    I know many in our area are facing similar issues with early green-up. Here is an article that came through on our twitter feed earlier today.
    
    https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/2017/02/ ... in-winter/

    
    
    
    
18. James Smith

    

    112 posts
    
    3/12/2018 9:03 AM

    William Murphy said: I know many in our area are facing similar issues with early green-up. Here is an article that came through on our twitter feed earlier today.
    
    https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/2017/02/ ... in-winter/

    
    
    thanks for that article, I am seeing a little green up in our roughs which were sprayed a week earlier. more cold weather has hit us with nights getting into the upper 40's so we basically went dormant again in some areas that were green and not sprayed.
    
    Hoping for warmer weather before our tournaments kick in though.

    
    
    
    
19. Holt Michael

    
    3/28/2018 12:03 PM

    41% glyphosate worked great for me for the same "it's cheap and I can't afford anything better right now" reason. Please understand that it works great but year after year use in the winter on dormant turf means that anything that survives it will be resistant to it in a matter of years. I have resistant Poa now and now that I really can't afford other alternatives, I have no choice. Actively growing Bermuda, I'd say let it roll, no worries about resistancy, you'll never completely kill it anyway, but on dormant Bermuda it better be a concern. Also, go at least a quart per acre, maybe more, with a buffer to lower the pH and spray on a day that is at least 55-60 degrees and for several days after application. Be sure to kill what you're after and by using a higher rate you're not going to delay dormant Bermuda that much longer, maybe another week for a lot better control. BUT, rotate every year. Don't cut your nose off now to only hate your face worse down the road.

    
    
    
    
20. James Smith

    

    112 posts
    
    4/24/2018 9:04 AM

    Well I have to say, My membership hates the Roundup treatment. yes it cleaned out the weeds! but with the cold weather hanging in it has left our fairways very thin and in some areas bare. This was at 20oz/acre!
    
    My thoughts though was that I missed the goosegrass window on my roughs by about 10 days because I sprayed the fairways afterwards and they have none where as I am slowing going wall to wall goosegrass in my roughs. yes we are thin but from past experience we have always been thin in the spring. with the exception of the last 3-5 years where we just dealt with Poa until it died out.
    
    Will I do it again? not this time of the year. If I cannot get it out by January we will just deal with the weeds. its not worth hearing my membership complain about it when they seem to be happy with the weeds. my biggest problem is we get 2-3 days in the 70's with nighttime temps in the 50's and the a cold front where it gets down to the 40's. just warm enough for it to green up but not enough for it to grow.

    
    
    
    
21. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    5/20/2018 4:05 PM

    I'm late to this but my two cents is that this is a bad idea. You are setting yourself up for resistance in the near future and then the financial hit will be a real event.
    I've been doing this job for awhile and my observation is that whenever I cut a corner or try to do something that saves money in the short term, I take a beating down the road.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
22. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    5/25/2018 8:05 AM

    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: I'm late to this but my two cents is that this is a bad idea. You are setting yourself up for resistance in the near future and then the financial hit will be a real event.
    I've been doing this job for awhile and my observation is that whenever I cut a corner or try to do something that saves money in the short term, I take a beating down the road.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    
    I can attest to that with some of my decisions, like for example broad leaf control, Oh I'll use the 3 pints per acre instead of the 4, while I will kill most of the weeds, I don't get them all, and what did I save? Maybe $2 an acre? (and anyone who knows me, I'm cheap as can be)
    
    I know budgets can be tight but sometimes it cost more in the long run, second applications, labor etc.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
23. James Smith

    

    112 posts
    
    5/28/2018 7:05 AM

    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: I'm late to this but my two cents is that this is a bad idea. You are setting yourself up for resistance in the near future and then the financial hit will be a real event.
    I've been doing this job for awhile and my observation is that whenever I cut a corner or try to do something that saves money in the short term, I take a beating down the road.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    This is actually a good point to discuss.
    
    In your mind resistance would be the problem!
    but in my mind the counter would be why would resistance to roundup be a problem if it is in your fairways, roughs?
    
    I mean their not areas you would normally use them or look to use them down the road.
    
    I think the real question would be if the resistance would also cause resistance to other herbicides also!
    
    We use Roundup in a lot of areas around our course throughout the year to control weeds. we do this every year, over and over. its normally areas we do not want anything growing like around our airconditioning units, fence lines, trees. at what point are we suppose to rotate chemicals to stop resistance? To be honest I have never thought twice about these areas and maybe I should. is this a practice you have already started? what other options have you been using?

    
    
    
    
24. Jeffrey Scott

    

    8 posts
    
    4/5/2019 12:04 PM

    Have used Roundup for bentgrass conversion on blue/rye/poa fairways since the early 1980's. Our rates were all over the board and had varying success - especially on the perennial rye. Once you see that you didn't wipe it out as the bentrass emerged, you wish you had gone at the higher rate.
    20 years later in my associations with the Brookside ag consultants, I discover that in their ag recommendations, Roundup works best in spray water that has a pH of 3 to 4. I did see one post here that mentions buffering the pH of the spray water. There are infinite differences in the water chemistry that is put in the sprayer tanks in my area. Probably bears investigation with the high cost of pesticides...
    
    IMHO,
    Jeff Scott
    Midwest Turf Specialties

    
    
    
    
25. Jeffrey Scott

    

    8 posts
    
    1/1/2020 11:01 AM

    I'm curious as to whatever was the consensus among the group that had this thread going on in May of 2018.  I posted my comment in April of 2019 - almost a year after the thread had been going on - and since that posting, there have been over 500 views and not one additional comment.
      We're looking forward to another busy GIS in a few weeks...  Stop by booth 3224 that is adjacent to the big networking/dining area near the middle of the show floor.  Our business is "booming" and we're introducing several new items that are certainly going to be of interest to many of the supts in attendance.
    
    Happy New Year!
    Jeff Scott
    WILSCOT, LLC
    SGM Industries, LLC
    Midwest Turf Specialties, LLC
    

    
    
    
    
26. James Smith

    

    112 posts
    
    1/7/2020 2:01 PM in reply to Jeffrey Scott

    Well I have moved onto a better club with a budget so now will treat everything different. 
    
    But let me follow up. 
    
    The biggest thing I noticed about using the Roundup when I did. My Virginia Button weed pressure  dropped down by 80%. My fairways and roughs were starting to get really bad with it the year before the application. that summer I saw very little. it was the biggest discussion around my club. My fairways had been left pretty thin that spring. it took us until summer to get complete coverage. I know a lot of people use Round Up in Winter to kill out the winter weeds. I personally will never do it again if I am not dormant. 
    
    At my current club which is on 30 miles down the road. We are still green in our fairways and tees this year. only had three days of light frost all winter so far. I am currently building a program to start the spring with but I am worried that if we do not treat for Goose Grass, Crab Grass soon we may miss the window. We just have not gotten cold enough to keep the soil temperatures down.