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New overtime rules

39 posts
  1. David Brandenburg
    David Brandenburg avatar
    3 posts
    7/1/2015 9:07 AM
    I wonder how many clubs are going to be effected by the new overtime rules the Obama administration is proposing? We are not but there has to be a number of assistants and other "salaried" employees making under $50,440 a year or $970 a week that will now have to be paid overtime no matter what their job description is.

    The old limit was $23,660 or $455 per week and was low but this will challenge many golf clubs to hire more part time employees or increase overtime budgets.

    One more policy to take control away from the free market and increase the cost of doing business.



  2. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    7/1/2015 5:07 PM
    Our salaries are based on 45 hours a week. If we switch assistants to hourly, they will have to take a per hour pay cut to equal their annual pay.



  3. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/2/2015 4:07 PM
    David Brandenburg, CGCS said: I wonder how many clubs are going to be effected by the new overtime rules the Obama administration is proposing? We are not but there has to be a number of assistants and other "salaried" employees making under $50,440 a year or $970 a week that will now have to be paid overtime no matter what their job description is.

    The old limit was $23,660 or $455 per week and was low but this will challenge many golf clubs to hire more part time employees or increase overtime budgets.

    One more policy to take control away from the free market and increase the cost of doing business.


    Some Assistants? Heck there will be some Superintendents that will now earn overtime, including me, well I guess since we are a municipality we get comp time.

    I agree with the proposed rules, I don't quite agree with the amount. But with the current rule at 40 hours per week that would be $11.38 per hour. When we have people working 60 hour weeks, that is barely minimum wage, $7.58 per hour. How is that fair? Without studying it that much I would think a fair rate would be between $30,000 to $35,000 yearly salary, and under they should be paid overtime.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  4. Dane Gamble
    Dane Gamble avatar
    2 posts
    7/8/2015 9:07 PM
    A simple way to avoid problems with OT is to simply pay everyone on an hourly basis. Many employers have gotten themselves in trouble by incorrectly classifying employees as exempt from overtime rules and assuming all salaried employee would be exempt. We end up with some OT expense but manage accordingly.



  5. James Gray
    James Gray avatar
    1 posts
    9/23/2015 8:09 AM
    .



  6. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    9/23/2015 1:09 PM
    Up here golf course labourers are classified as agricultural workers and do not qualify for overtime or paid statutory holidays even though those working in the clubhouse/proshop do. Our guys work under the same setup as migrant workers that we import seasonally from Mexico and Jamaica.
    I'm not sure how we could operate within budget if we had to pay overtime



  7. Max Lamas
    Max Lamas avatar
    0 posts
    2/27/2016 9:02 AM
    Larry Allan said: Up here golf course labourers are classified as agricultural workers and do not qualify for overtime or paid statutory holidays even though those working in the clubhouse/proshop do. Our guys work under the same setup as migrant workers that we import seasonally from Mexico and Jamaica.
    I'm not sure how we could operate within budget if we had to pay overtime


    Hill

    I have heard thisome a lot about how some courses can classify works as agriculture workers. Sometimes I feel courses classify the works this way because workers would not challenge. I called the state lawyer from vermont labor depsrtment. In a nutshell he said that we could be classified as seasonal workers only if no one was employed longer than 8 months out of the year. If anyone was on the books for longer than 8 months then we would loose the seasonal business classification.

    Regarding assistants, I believe your pay should be at least what a min. wage worker makes with overtime. It is shameful that employers make employees salary just to avoid overtime pay.

    I can care less about a golf course and the standards they want met. Stay within your means people.

    Larry, this is nothing against you. Just me ranting.



  8. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    2/27/2016 6:02 PM
    Is Hill short for Larry?



  9. Max Lamas
    Max Lamas avatar
    0 posts
    2/27/2016 7:02 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: Is Hill short for Larry?


    That's is a mistake made on my tablet.



  10. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    2/28/2016 8:02 AM
    I'm just busting your chops...



  11. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    2/28/2016 7:02 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: I'm just busting your chops...


    I think it is more fun busting Hill's, I mean Larry's chops.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  12. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    2/28/2016 10:02 PM
    Hill Larious



  13. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    2/29/2016 6:02 PM
    Peter Bowman, CGCS said: Hill Larious


    Bah-dump-bump



  14. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    5/19/2016 8:05 AM
    Since this has passed and is being implemented, thought I would bring it back up to the top of the threads to see more comments on it. In one of my Facebook golf groups it is getting some traction.

    Also wondering what our Association's (GCSAA) take is on this is. I know with National Golf Day yesterday and members talking to lawmakers on Capital Hill, it was mentioned about labor issues, but was this labor issue discussed? Or was it more the H2B visa problem.

    Would also be interesting to hear how it might affect other positions at a club or golf course.

    I do know in our operations, we are already paid hourly and get comp time (I guess government entities can do that) and our salaries are low enough we would continue with this. I do wonder we are working through job studies to reclassify our position which would make us exempt, (plus our salaries get a bump up to the next pay classification). That bump up might put us over the new exempt threshold barely, so I wonder if we will stay hourly, due to all of the steps in that salary grade is below the new threshold except maybe our toped out step.

    I haven't changed my position on this from what I stated in an earlier post.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  15. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    5/19/2016 8:05 AM
    Andy Jorgensen said: Our salaries are based on 45 hours a week. If we switch assistants to hourly, they will have to take a per hour pay cut to equal their annual pay.


    Andy, The only way they loose is if you don't work them 45 hours a week. I bet there are weeks you work them 50 hours a week.



  16. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    5/19/2016 8:05 AM
    James Gray said: Bring it on. I'm either getting a substantial raise or going to be working a lot less hours. Win win for most supers in my area.


    [size=150">Agreed this is a win win in our industry, high time we compensate assistants and superintendents for appropriate effort. [/size">



  17. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    5/19/2016 9:05 AM
    I do know in our operations, we are already paid hourly and get comp time (I guess government entities can do that) and our salaries are low enough we would continue with this. I do wonder we are working through job studies to reclassify our position which would make us exempt, (plus our salaries get a bump up to the next pay classification). That bump up might put us over the new exempt threshold barely, so I wonder if we will stay hourly, due to all of the steps in that salary grade is below the new threshold except maybe our toped out step.

    I haven't changed my position on this from what I stated in an earlier post.

    Mel

    Mel,
    I know when i worked for the Tribal government i was eligible for time and a half comp time, and i had a limited time to use it, regardless of being exempt. The Tribe follows federal law. I could never use all the comp time i earned but it was nice to have if needed. This law will have a significant impact on our resort payroll. Exempt supervisors will either be moved up to the new minimum or moved to hourly if the difference is too great. I am in support of the Obama administrations change of the threshold and see it as a positive move for the working class.



  18. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    5/19/2016 1:05 PM
    Sean Hoolehan, CGCS said:
    Andy Jorgensen said: Our salaries are based on 45 hours a week. If we switch assistants to hourly, they will have to take a per hour pay cut to equal their annual pay.


    Andy, The only way they loose is if you don't work them 45 hours a week. I bet there are weeks you work them 50 hours a week.


    I agree. But some weeks it is less than 45. So 45 is a good average. Yes, there are those extreme weeks where we work 60+, and in this case they would be paid overtime.



  19. Kevin Doyle
    Kevin Doyle avatar
    0 posts
    5/20/2016 1:05 PM
    We Are Golf did have the overtime rule as part of our talking points on Capital Hill this week. It was easy to discuss with your Congressional representatives, as it was signed and released on National Golf Day. This link from the Department of Labor has some information that you should know, and GCSAA will release more golf specific information soon: https://www.dol.gov/whd/overtime/final2016/

    Kevin Doyle
    GCSAA Field Staff, Northeast Region



  20. Stephen Ravenkamp
    Stephen Ravenkamp avatar
    1 posts
    7/5/2016 9:07 PM
    This new rule is not law, yet, but there is a 90% or better chance it will become law. The only real point up for discussion is whether the three-year indexing provision will stay in the final version. Go your Relations has a very good webinar on it that you can listen to.



  21. Kevin Clunis
    Kevin Clunis avatar
    0 posts
    7/12/2016 8:07 AM
    Did anyone attend the webinar a few weeks ago on this rule? My question that I need to find out on how does it effect seasonal staff? Our clubhouse manager is seasonal and trying to figure out what to do come December. I'm sure this will hold true for any seasonal assistants as well.



  22. Stephen Ravenkamp
    Stephen Ravenkamp avatar
    1 posts
    7/13/2016 10:07 AM
    Mel,
    I don't believe it is legal to pay comp time to hourly workers instead of overtime. I know the House tried to pass that a few years back but I don't believe it got past the Senate.
    With regard to seasonal workers, the rules state anyone making less than $913 per week must be paid overtime. I don't remember exactly what was said about seasonal workers but I do remember it was in the webinar.
    I suggest you contact Government Relations to get answers to these, and any other, questions. They can give you the link to the recorded webinar.



  23. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/13/2016 1:07 PM
    Stephen Ravenkamp, CGCS said: Mel,
    I don't believe it is legal to pay comp time to hourly workers instead of overtime. I know the House tried to pass that a few years back but I don't believe it got past the Senate.
    With regard to seasonal workers, the rules state anyone making less than $913 per week must be paid overtime. I don't remember exactly what was said about seasonal workers but I do remember it was in the webinar.
    I suggest you contact Government Relations to get answers to these, and any other, questions. They can give you the link to the recorded webinar.


    Since we are a government agency, I believe they are allowed to pay comp time. Might have something to do with set budgets due to how revenue is brought in, and in order to provide services that governmental agencies provide would be my guess.

    https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs7.pdf

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  24. Max Lamas
    Max Lamas avatar
    0 posts
    7/15/2016 12:07 PM
    Kevin Clunis, CGCS said: Did anyone attend the webinar a few weeks ago on this rule? My question that I need to find out on how does it effect seasonal staff? Our clubhouse manager is seasonal and trying to figure out what to do come December. I'm sure this will hold true for any seasonal assistants as well.


    I asked this question regarding employers that fall under seasonal exceptions. Her answer was if you are a salaried employee; this law will effect you.

    My understanding is they must be pro-rated at the minimum salary requirements. Essentially, they must make the $940 a week or whatever it is regardless. For instance, if you are pro-rated at $52,000 a year and you work 32 weeks out of the year; your take home from that employer is $32,000 per year.



  25. Ryan Sears
    Ryan Sears avatar
    1 posts
    7/20/2016 2:07 PM
    My club is considering reducing salaried individuals total salary pay in order to compensate them for OT in the season. So, they would be making less on salary but getting pd. OT essentially paying the person the same as before the law kicks in. We are tracking OT hrs currently to estimate what the numbers will be. Then if they come up short at years end just bonus them out.
    This of course will take some budgeting on the employees part but keeps things close w/o blowing the payroll budget?
    Thoughts?



  26. Chris Wiedenmeyer
    Chris Wiedenmeyer avatar
    0 posts
    7/20/2016 6:07 PM
    Ryan,

    You are saying pay them the same just skirt around the new regs?

    If that is what your club is looking at I would say that is a bad way of thinking. The new regs will force many clubs, mine included to find savings elsewhere. I know all of us can look around and see wasted spending, some of it we ourselves are guilty of doing. Heck, I have already spoke with ownership and cut out unnecessary things. I currently make well under this new salary minimum. My wife also makes less. 2 kids, small house, one financed vehicle (other owned), no credit other than house and vehicle. We do not necessarily struggle to make ends meet but we do not have lots of extra for vacations and luxury items. Both with college degrees and management positions, Midwest USA. I think this new reg is a darn good thing and way overdue. As minimum wage has kept up salaries have not kept pace. We have seen increases in cost of living yet employers have not had to keep up with that. I believe my employer will step up and pay the extra. Time will tell for me, but I still stand by my original comment that I think finding a loophole is a BS way of skirting the problem.



  27. Peter McPartland
    Peter McPartland avatar
    0 posts
    7/20/2016 8:07 PM
    I agree with you chris on above. So how is the person at that club doing any better. This law is to help people make more. Seems to me that club and employee won't do any better.



  28. Gary Carls
    Gary Carls avatar
    19 posts
    7/21/2016 12:07 PM
    I hope this doesn't become like "Obamacare" where people try and figure ways around doing what the rules are intended for. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that is already taking place at some facilities. You would think the government folks would be the 1st to step in line to take care of folks but as soon as "Obamacare" took effect most of the 30 hour per week part -time jobs with the City where I had worked were eliminated and everything was phased back to an absolute maximum of 25 hours/week so they could avoid the insurance issues.

    I was fortunate in that all of the full-time golf staff I had working for me were making well above any of minimum wage anyway and everyone was on an hourly basis with OT and Comp time provided. Hopefully these new rules will make it better for golf course staff who have not been quite so fortunate in the past.

    Gary K. Carls, CGCS, President - Oakland Turfgrass Education Initiative

  29. Ryan Sears
    Ryan Sears avatar
    1 posts
    7/25/2016 9:07 AM
    I definitely understand where your coming from. Thanks for your thoughts/opinions on this.



  30. Lisa Wick
    Lisa Wick avatar
    1 posts
    7/25/2016 3:07 PM
    Good afternoon - this thread was on the homepage and caught my eye.
    Kevin - here's the link to the webinar you mentioned that we held:
    http://www.gcsaa.org/education/webcasts ... time-rules

    you'll have to walk through the enrollment but can then listen to the recording.
    Kerri did a good job of addressing some of the nuances you all have discussed.
    There are also State by State Rules that Kaelyn in Government Affairs has posted on the Labor page here:
    http://cqrcengage.com/gcsaa/Labor

    along with some other pieces of information that may be useful. Lisa

    Lisa Wick, sr. manager, e-Learning Programs

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